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Introduction 0:00 - Hello, I'm Ruth Veloria. 0:01 I'm the Chief Strategy and Customer Officer 0:03 at the ������Ƶ, 0:05 and I'm delighted to talk with Jill Koziol today, 0:08 who's our guest from Motherly. 0:09 And we're gonna be chatting about the challenges 0:12 of motherhood and being in the working world 0:14 and thinking about the solutions, 0:16 the barriers that mothers face, 0:18 and ideating to give you some creative thoughts about 0:21 how to move yourself forward in your working world. 0:23 So love to introduce Jill 0:25 and have her say a few things about herself. 0:27 - Excellent, thank you so much for having me. 0:28 It really is a pleasure. About Motherly 0:30 My name is Jill Koziol. 0:31 I am the co-founder of Motherly. 0:33 We are a wellbeing platform 0:35 that is empowering mothers to thrive. 0:37 About anywhere from 20 to 40 million women per month engaged 0:39 with our platform, from our podcast to our content, 0:42 to our books and otherwise, 0:45 and we're so excited to be partnering 0:47 with ������Ƶ. 0:48 - It's been a great partnership that we have. 0:50 We've done some recent studies on working moms 0:53 'cause as a ������Ƶ representative, 0:56 we serve mostly moms actually at our university, 0:59 and they have a lot of struggles with some of their careers 1:01 and then coming back to school to progress. 1:03 And it's been great to do this work that we have 1:06 on really studying, going deep dives 1:08 and looking at the different socioeconomic layers 1:11 on what's happening with our students. 1:13 And I know from my takeaways, I really was struck by, 1:18 you know, how the different economic layers 1:20 face different challenges. 1:21 One particular thing that struck me 1:23 was just the access to childcare. 1:25 I mean, I know how I manage that as a mom, 1:27 Jill, I'm sure you've had different experiences too, 1:30 but that seems to be a real problem. 1:32 How do you react to that? 1:33 - Yes, this is actually the number one problem 1:36 that mothers are facing right now. 1:38 It is what is keeping women out of the workforce 1:40 and mothers specifically. 1:41 And childcare, what you're looking for, What is keeping women out of the workforce 1:43 what moms and parents in general are looking for 1:45 is affordable, accessible, and high quality for childcare, 1:50 and they can very rarely get all three. 1:52 And it's really holding them back and making parents 1:54 and families make really tough choices 1:57 about their financial options 1:58 that they have available to them. 2:00 And it's keeping women, our most educated cohort 2:03 in the economy right now out of the workforce. 2:05 - It is absolutely, and what I find, 2:08 you know, in looking at the situations 2:10 where moms often find themselves in 2:11 starting out in early careers, we have our moms in retail 2:15 or in healthcare or maybe in the social sciences, 2:19 and they don't have as much flexibility. 2:21 So when it comes to that childcare, 2:23 that really, I can see how that becomes that barrier 2:26 'cause if you don't have the ability to stop off 2:28 and take a kid to a doctor's appointment, 2:30 you're gonna find yourself in a lot of situations 2:32 where you're not able to keep up perhaps 2:34 with some of your male counterparts. 2:36 - Yes, and that's what the Mom Report found also 2:38 is that not only are they struggling with childcare, 2:42 but that struggling with childcare 2:43 is forcing them to take on multiple jobs 2:46 because they can't take one full-time nine to five job 2:50 which would maybe at least somewhat align 2:51 with childcare availability. 2:53 They're taking jobs and they're really pulling together 2:55 with neighbors and you know, some unpaid options 2:59 for childcare and it's really making women feel 3:02 and mothers feel very overwhelmed 3:04 and really, really feeling as though they can't succeed, 3:07 and that they can't even consider that they have a career. 3:11 They're just working to keep ends meet. 3:13 - Yes, career is a luxury, so to speak. 3:15 And you know it's hard if you don't have role models 3:17 further up an organization as moms are putting together 3:20 like a patchwork quilt, as you say, of care, 3:24 how do you then be able to look even ahead 3:26 in your organization and say, wow, I can aspire 3:29 to be like this person? 3:30 Because often mentorship, networking or social capital 3:34 is really, really important to have career growth. 3:36 I mean, how do you succeed 3:38 when you don't have anyone to look up to? 3:40 - That is the challenge. 3:41 And even those women that have moved 3:43 into the middle management layers, they too are struggling. 3:46 They are having to in the office, 3:49 pretend that they are not parents, Finding mentors 3:51 and that at home held to an expectation 3:53 that they are fully present and available 3:55 and don't actually have a job. 3:56 And so for them, finding time to mentor 4:00 those entry level workers 4:02 or people that they believe have great high potential 4:04 and the ability to move up in their careers 4:06 is incredibly challenging as well. 4:08 And so identifying and finding mentorship 4:11 and frankly prioritizing that 4:13 for those that are in leadership roles 4:15 is incredibly important. 4:16 And I really believe we have a responsibility 4:19 as we move up in our career to pay it forward 4:22 and to help lift up others with us. 4:24 - That's so true, yeah, 4:26 I have several folks reach out to me 4:28 to be a mentor here at the ������Ƶ, 4:30 and I think it's really, really important to recognize 4:33 and help people go through their struggles. 4:35 I mean, struggles as simple as, 4:37 you know, maybe there's a small microaggression 4:39 because people aren't really used to the fact 4:41 that you have to leave early 4:43 if you are the primary care child, you know, 4:45 that person that day and people start 4:47 to sort of look at you a little bit differently. 4:49 And that can lead to ultimately that career limiting step 4:53 that happens when you can't get that next opportunity. 4:56 - And that is what, that's what the Mom Report found 4:58 is that mothers do feel that once they became mothers, 5:02 they were being penalized in their careers. 5:04 And so that mentoring, you know, my advice frankly 5:09 is to just ask, ask for it. 5:13 So not only do the people that have moved up in their career 5:16 have a responsibility to share their experiences 5:18 and be a little vulnerable frankly, 5:20 about that you're still struggling also to normalize that, 5:23 but also that entry level group or that lower economic group 5:27 that is struggling to find mentors, it's about asking. Mentoring other mothers 5:31 And to your point, I mean, 5:32 it sounds like you are mentoring other mothers 5:35 in ������Ƶ. 5:37 How did they come to you? How did they... 5:39 - I mean we have some great core values 5:42 here at the ������Ƶ, 5:43 brave, honest, and focused, 5:45 and we have a lot of brave women, honestly. 5:48 And they will pick up the phone and send me a message 5:50 and say, I wish, you know, I could learn some things 5:53 from you about how to progress in my career, 5:55 and that's how mostly it started for me. 5:57 Other times I may have been on a project and I felt someone, 6:01 you know, was really trying to grow into a role 6:03 and I've taken them under my wing 6:04 and kind of given them advice 6:06 to do things like that, you know. 6:07 - That's exactly right. 6:08 I know so often women in leadership can feel, 6:11 it can feel almost unapproachable. 6:13 And that it is important to know that, 6:16 again, these are women that are struggling 6:17 that have been in your shoes before, 6:19 and everyone has a story and a bag of rocks 6:22 they carried to get to where they are. 6:23 And so asking those, just sending, 6:25 I get people to send me notices just on LinkedIn, 6:28 and say like, I'm working on this thing right now, 6:31 like, might you be able to talk to me, 6:32 like just 15 minutes of your time? 6:33 And I love those opportunities to share and to give back 6:37 and to help inspire because I do believe 6:39 in that if you can be it, you know, 6:41 if you see it, you can be it, 6:42 and I think there's power in sharing stories 6:46 and sharing experiences and helping people 6:48 be able to see themselves in that. 6:50 And at every education level, 6:52 at every economic level, those things matter. 6:54 - At the end of the day, we wanna get our women 6:57 to be in those industries 6:58 where they can have that more flexibility. 7:00 We've talked about some industries where, 7:03 again, it's harder in retail, it can be harder in healthcare 7:06 unless you have certain shifts 7:08 that you can work to be more flexible. 7:10 So it's fascinating. 7:12 I thought the other day looking 7:13 at the degrees that men pursue. 7:15 If you look at the degrees, it's finance, 7:17 and it's computer science, and it's technology. 7:20 And some of these jobs are work from home, 7:21 I can program from my basement. 7:24 I think if we can encourage women 7:26 to take a look at some of those careers too 7:27 and think about all the creativity you can still express. 7:30 - That is really, that's really powerful. 7:33 I hadn't, I hadn't thought of that, 7:35 but you're absolutely right. 7:35 We think about these service industries 7:37 that have a higher proportion of women in them, 7:40 that most women become mothers, 7:43 and those are then really limiting opportunities 7:46 when you become a mom, you know, 7:48 working 12 hour shifts, especially, 7:50 and I know the study picked up on this too, 7:51 especially if you are a single parent, 7:53 and the limitations that that can have 7:56 on you and your career as well. 7:58 - Yes, I mean, the shift to remote working 8:00 is really a good thing for moms, 8:03 but finding those industries where you can be successful 8:05 is obviously gonna be the key strategy 8:07 that you wanna be able to engage moms in thinking about, 8:10 okay, how can I be more flexible, what careers can I learn? 8:14 And I think, you know, part of it 8:15 is having our employers frankly step up, 8:18 and educate moms about the different skills 8:21 that they could take on and they could start getting 8:23 into different projects, take on new roles. Mothers superpowers 8:26 - Well, have you found, 8:28 as someone who's managed people in teams, 8:30 and as you've grown up in your career, 8:32 what new superpowers do you see mothers 8:35 bringing to the workforce? 8:36 You know, translating from motherhood into the workforce 8:39 that you think maybe moms are not capitalizing on enough 8:43 in their professional life? 8:45 - Yeah, you know, I think for me it's that notion of calm. 8:50 You've got a lot of kids all trying to get out of school, 8:53 running around with their socks off 8:55 and not finished their breakfast. 8:57 How are we gonna get them in the car? 8:59 And I know moms often comment that about me, 9:01 that somehow there's this pervading sense of calm, 9:04 even though in my head I have a million things going on 9:06 and practicing and getting ready for the day. 9:08 So I think that sense of just the calm before the storm 9:12 and then the ability to negotiate. 9:14 - Ah, yes. - Right, so... 9:15 - Negotiating with a two-year-old, 9:17 you can negotiate in a C-suite. 9:18 - Yes, absolutely, and you know, how do I, 9:22 how do I prepare a high schooler 9:24 for okay, you're gonna have to trade off, 9:26 are you using the car, are you not using the car? 9:28 What's in it for me? 9:29 You know, how do you relate back and forth to each other? 9:33 I think that ability to really connect 9:36 and understand where people are coming from 9:38 and then how to align them best with the type of positions 9:41 where they could actually give their best at work. 9:44 So I really think those are special skills 9:47 that are coming from mother, not that our husbands 9:50 can't always pull those off. 9:51 - For sure, but there are ones 9:52 that women are still typically the primary caregiver 9:56 or the default parent as we say sometimes, 9:58 and carry a lot of that mental load of parenthood. 10:00 And with that comes all of the skills that you just outlined 10:04 that are really applicable in business. 10:08 And also I'd say even just the ability to multitask 10:11 and to strategize and plan ahead. 10:14 And too productivity I feel like actually really went up 10:18 for me once I became a mom. 10:20 My time became so much more precious 10:22 and so much more valuable, and so, but it was balanced. 10:27 So in some ways I was a bit more transactional 10:29 with getting things done, but those new relationship skills 10:33 also kinda counterbalanced that 10:34 to just make me highly effective. 10:36 - Yeah, no, I agree with that, that planning ahead 10:38 is so important because there's just so many pieces 10:41 of the puzzle you have to put together. 10:43 And I think I was talking about having a spreadsheet, 10:46 you know, who needs to be picked up where, 10:48 who needs to be dropped off where. 10:50 I mean, spreadsheet skills. 10:52 - [Speakers] That's a really good point. 10:53 - That's really important in the workplace. 10:55 And you know, I think that there are 10:58 these special superpowers that moms have for sure. 11:00 But then there are also skills that we need to learn 11:03 in the workplace and we're really relying on our employers, 11:07 I think, to step up. 11:08 Like there's a few key changes 11:11 that employers can really make, 11:12 and maybe we start out with childcare, 11:14 there are some places that provide childcare 11:16 that are excellent, 11:18 but then there of course there are other places 11:19 that are not gonna be able to afford to do that. 11:21 - Exactly, it really is a challenge. 11:23 As we've talked to employers, 11:25 and we've talked at the government level lobbying 11:27 for this as well, there's no clean, fast answer for this. 11:31 I found a lot of employers were really interested, 11:34 and went very deep on studies 11:36 to see can we have onsite childcare? 11:38 And then they got into liability and insurance 11:41 and all of these other things that started to make it 11:43 really not possible for them financially 11:46 because ultimately, everybody's got a boss, 11:48 a business has investors and others, and as such, 11:50 and so it starts to get... 11:53 It cannot be a truly private only solution ultimately, 11:57 this really will need to be a public, private partnership, 11:59 and a recognition and a valuing of caregiving 12:03 and of the need to have dual incomes in today's economy. 12:06 - [Ruth] Absolutely. 12:07 - You know, for those of us that do have partners, 12:08 like increasingly in today's economy, 12:11 you need both parents working 12:12 in order to sustain a family. 12:14 - Yeah, this is so true. 12:15 - And so we need to have childcare resources for them, 12:18 and it's, as I said, it needs to be affordable, 12:20 accessible, and high quality. 12:22 And so much of this country, especially since pandemic, 12:25 funding for childcare has gone away, 12:27 we are seeing childcare deserts 12:29 and true market failure, economic market failure 12:33 where there is a real mismatch between what the parents need 12:36 and want and what the market is able to provide it. 12:40 - Yes, and, you know, that even starts way back 12:42 in maternity and paternity leave, obviously. 12:45 Not every company's able to provide that either. 12:48 When I think about though the, you know, the economics 12:51 behind that decision, I think we have to really imagine 12:54 our moms who are coming to us who know the company culture, 12:58 they know the values, they have the knowledge 13:01 that's inherent in their business process. 13:03 I think in imagining trading that off 13:05 with hiring a new person and the slow productivity ramp 13:09 it takes to bring that person to speed, 13:11 I think employers really do need to think 13:12 about the economic trade off and really try to invest 13:15 behind that maternity, paternity leave. 13:18 - You're 100% right. 13:19 And I think anyone in HR and anyone who's looking 13:21 at the actual P and Ls too of a business understands 13:24 that cost of a leaky pipeline of female talent. 13:27 - Right. 13:28 - We were talking about this earlier, 13:29 that this is the first generation, 13:31 millennials are the first generation 13:33 in which women are actually more educated than men. 13:35 - Yes. 13:36 - As the most educated cohort in our economy, 13:38 we need them working, we need them adding value 13:41 so that our country can maintain 13:43 this economic engine that we are. 13:45 And so in order to do that, 13:46 we're gonna have to solve for this. 13:48 And it is, we are in a tipping point, 13:53 I think, where these things need to be resolved. 13:55 - Yeah, so I mean, whether it's the cost of education, 13:57 the cost of childcare, we're really at this place 14:00 where employers are gonna step up and play 14:02 a big part of their own, you know, their own role. 14:04 And I think growing people from within 14:07 is a really important topic. 14:08 - Right, and that retention, to your point, there was a, 14:11 a few years ago, there was a study, I won't name names, 14:14 but there was a bank, an investment bank, 14:16 very large in the US that ran a study 14:18 because they were noticing that they had a leaky pipeline 14:22 of female talent and they started to question why, The problem 14:25 which is great, awesome. 14:26 Found a problem, let's ask questions, 14:27 let's find out what it is. 14:29 And what they found was not that these women 14:31 were leaving the workforce, 14:33 they were just leaving that employer. 14:35 So after they had their children, 14:37 they were moving on someplace else, 14:38 and the reason that they were doing that is they needed 14:42 to be able to have a new identity as a parent, 14:45 as a working parent, and to feel honored in that 14:48 and not held to the, you know, 100-hour work weeks 14:51 in this particular bank that they were being held to. 14:53 And, that was, you know, really impacting the bottom line 14:56 for this business because that then need losing 14:59 a middle manager, who to your point, 15:01 you have spent time training and learning your way 15:05 of doing things, that is immense cost to the business. 15:09 - Yeah, 100%, I mean, I feel very fortunate. 15:11 I was in one of those kind of companies 15:13 where people might work 80 to 100 hours a week 15:16 and found myself able to be able to negotiate a away 15:19 for me just to work four days. 15:21 I went to a financial services company, did the same thing, 15:24 was just able to work four days. 15:26 And when employees embraced that type of flexibility, 15:29 it really does help keep talent in an organization. 15:32 - And we found in the Mom Report actually, 15:34 that mothers said that if they were offered development 15:37 and educational opportunities from their employers, 15:39 that they would stay, they would be loyal to that employer, 15:42 and we found that at Motherly. 15:43 We have flexible work hours even 15:47 because we're work from home, 15:48 full-time work from home since 2015, 15:50 and that we also have hours 15:52 where you only have to work six hours 15:54 during the eight hour period, 15:55 so you can catch up in the morning 15:56 or catch up in the evening. 15:57 So you can be there for preschool pickup if you need to 16:00 or the doctor's appointment that pops up 16:02 or frankly, the yoga class, right? 16:05 And that then allows you to feel 16:08 as though you're contributing on both parts, 16:10 and you're not having to always sacrifice. 16:13 And that, offering that type of flexibility, 16:15 and then offering development opportunities on top of that, 16:18 that really creates loyalty with your team, 16:21 and then they're out there recruiting for you too. 16:24 They're out there singing your praises. 16:26 - Just again, that education point is key. 16:28 So you do feel like you have that ability 16:32 to go craft a proposal, have the critical thinking 16:35 to, you know, come out of a situation 16:37 and, you know, really start 16:38 to attack the employee situation. 16:41 But as you think about employers, 16:43 are there other elements of the landscape besides employers? 16:46 Like where else do you think 16:47 we could be making a difference? 16:50 - So I was talking with a friend about this recently. 16:52 We were talking about how we constantly hear 16:55 these different sides that feel so on the outskirts 16:58 of where most of the people we feel like are. 17:01 And I know through the State of Motherhood survey, 17:04 which we, Motherly runs every year, 17:06 that there is so much more that unites us than divides us. 17:09 I think so often women and mothers diminish ourselves. 17:13 The story we tell ourselves is that we are an island 17:17 and we're the only ones that aren't, 17:18 don't have it figured out, and that we are scared 17:21 to make those vulnerabilities known. 17:25 But there is power in those vulnerabilities. 17:27 There is an opportunity to actually light 17:30 a fire of change, frankly. 17:32 And so telling stories, 17:35 being open about the challenges that you're facing. 17:38 The most viral LinkedIn post I ever did 17:41 was one where there was a, I think it was a, 17:44 it was an article at Fortune or Forbes that talked about 17:47 how executive women are less likely to admit the amount 17:50 of help they have at home than men. 17:53 And so I read the article and I was like, 17:57 oh my gosh, that's so true, 17:58 but we're doing a disservice to that next generation 18:01 of people coming up to think 18:03 that we've got it all figured out 18:04 because I'm confident we do not, right? 18:07 - No, for sure. 18:07 - And so I posted and I shared every bit of help I have. 18:12 - [Ruth] Okay yes. 18:12 - Every single thing that it takes 18:14 because when people say, oh, how do you do it all? 18:16 My answer is I don't. 18:18 And so I think there is, there's, 18:21 no matter what level you're at, talk to your friends, 18:23 talk to the people around you, 18:25 share what you're struggling with, realize you're not alone, 18:29 and then take your feet and your fingers 18:31 and your voice to the legislative bodies, 18:34 the people that are making these decisions for us. 18:37 - That's a wonderful summary, Jill, 18:40 of the forces that we have in our education, 18:43 the forces that we have in our legislative arena, 18:46 the challenges that moms have, 18:48 especially that focus on childcare and flexibility. 18:52 I mean, this is how we feel at the ������Ƶ. 18:55 Just, you know, we're providing moms those ways to, 18:59 you know, get ahead and learn something about themselves, 19:01 to educate themselves and being flexible is really what, 19:04 a lot of what we are about as well. 19:05 And so we just wanna thank Jill, 19:07 it's been a fabulous interview 19:10 and lots of great, I think, ideas 19:12 about ways we can advocate for ourselves. 19:15 - Thank you so much for having me, 19:16 and thank you so much for the work 19:17 that ������Ƶ is doing 19:18 to elevate the needs and the challenges 19:21 and ultimately solutions for today's working moms. 19:24 - Thanks Jill. - Thank you. 19:25 - Thank you, thanks for tuning in everybody.